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I hate superstition. It's antithetical to everything that makes human progress work. Any belief without rational thought is counterproductive. Superstition, religion, folklore... it's all the same.
Years ago I found Soto Zen Buddhism and fell in love. It's not so much a religion as it is a philosophy. It encourages personal experience and observation rather than blindly following others or believing in that which can not be proven. To that end I finally threw out the last of my unsubstantiated beliefs.
Or so I thought.
I never liked guns. I fired them as a teen in scouts and with friends. Everything from a .22 to a shotgun to a 30-06. But I could never get past their destructive potential. No weapon in history has allowed an average person to kill so easily and indiscriminately. Of course, they also provide for defense from the misuse of those very same weapons but my mind was so clouded with the human suffering they'd caused that I couldn't see an upside.
I wanted to learn more about the gun control movement so I searched LiveJournal for a community related to it. There wasn't one, so I created this community. Almost all the other communities I was involved in were liberal in nature, and that's where I did most of the advertising for this community. I figured on getting a good discussion going about the types of gun control. I didn't count on this place being flooded by gun lovers. Especially since I advertised in mostly liberal communities. How could liberals love guns? Weren't guns a conservative thing?
That, along with my other preconceptions, slowly began to melt away as time wore on and your posts came in. At first I chalked it up to gun nuts grabbing the flag and waving the constitution without thought but over time I came to realize there was a great deal of thought behind the gun lovers' posts and arguments.
Still, nothing really shook my opinion of gun control until someone here pointed out that it seemed silly for a Zen Buddhist to discard reason in favor of gut feelings. That got me to thinking. And so I determined to find the statistics and hard data on the subject. I searched the net and was inundated with almost entirely pro-gun articles. They were full of facts but I chalked them up to the skewed statistics of believers. (Mark Twain once said: "There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damned lies, and Statistics")
Over time, however, the rationality of the pro-gun arguments and data began to eat their way past my prejudices and I started to doubt myself. I studied more. Then the Virginia Tech shootings occurred and I thought to myself: "These weren't kids. These were adults. How many could have been saved if one of them had a gun?"
This began my long period of relative silence in this community. It's not that I was disinterested or detached, only that I was thinking. A lot. I am a stubborn man and once I make up my mind on something it takes a lot to prove to myself that I was wrong all along. One of my many faults.
To come full circle, I hate superstition. It has held back progress throughout the millenia. It still does. And my own baseless beliefs clouded my views and it took a long time for me to work past that.
I'll not be joining the NRA any time soon. I still don't like guns. I wish they'd never been invented. But they're here. And nothing can be done about that. And to take guns away from the responsible law-abiding users only leaves the rest of us even more vulnerable. (It was with that realization that I finally saw how very silly "Gun Free Zones" are.) As it turns out you were right. Guns don't tend to jump up and shoot people by themselves.
The point is this: I apologize to all of you for my closed-minded bigotry. I thank you all deeply for your patient explanations and your willingness to try to nudge the facts through my defenses. It has finally taken root and I am no longer a gun control proponent. At least not trying to outlaw guns.
I realize my opinion is only one of 6.5 billion opinions on the Earth today, and I'm not very important, but I do thank the gun lovers of this community for helping me see the truth. My reward to you is that there's one less gun control nut in the world today. ;)
January 29 2008, 19:44:25 UTC 4 years ago
Well thought out
I have to appreciate your open-mindedness on this subject. I would like to comment on one of your points and expand upon it."No weapon in history has allowed an average person to kill so easily and indiscriminately."
While this may be true about guns it has also been true about every other tool advance that could be also used as a weapon. It was true about the club, the stone ax, the bronze sword, the tipped-spear and the Bow. It is now true about the firearm and will be more true about the next great weapon advance that will make the firearm seem like a BB-gun or sword in comparison.
"I still don't like guns. I wish they'd never been invented."
While, I would be the last person to wish away modern technology (especially the one thing that almost single-handedly ushered in the modern technological age), it would still be that -a WISH. A wish that has no basis in fact or probability. Sooner or later someone would figure out how to invent a better weapon or tool using the same ideas or maybe even something totally different. There is no holding back progress even when that progress isn't what a lot of people consider a good thing. All the rules and tyrannous governments in the world can't hold back something as simple as the ability to make and keep a simple item like a firearm.
Even if one could go back in time and change history so that the firearm were never invented, someone else would have invented it later. in fact, I think it was pretty much co-invented by many people as the technology became available. Missile weapons were being invented and perfected for thousands of years and a chemically-powered missile weapon was as inevitable as a shepherd learning to throw rocks further with a leather sling.
Personally, I'm happy that it was invented. For Goliath didn't need a missile weapon to stomp on the little guy. It was little David who brought down the stronger brute with a bit of shepherd tech and the firearm has been the friend of the smaller and weaker against the stronger and tougher ever since the first one was put together.
It is good to see that while you are not going to turn into a "gun-lover" at least you can admit that turning back the clock or turning up the heat of tyranny to rid the world of tools is not a good idea.
January 29 2008, 20:05:08 UTC 4 years ago
January 31 2008, 15:24:54 UTC 4 years ago
There are as many denominations of Buddhism as there are of Christianity. Soto Zen is a rather specific sect so there isn't as much information on it as there are of some other sects.
There used to be a really excellent website which I loved a great deal but it has unfortunately been taken down.
It's been years since I was investigating it myself so I'm not up on the latest sites but I'm sure Google has a plethora. I'm sorry I can't be of more specific help, though.
January 29 2008, 20:05:49 UTC 4 years ago
This really pissed me off, which is why I've become a pro-gun rights activist.
January 29 2008, 20:18:12 UTC 4 years ago
I used to believe that guns were evil and should be outlawed, too, until one night while my parter was visiting his parents in another state and I was home alone, a neighbor and two of his friends decided to break into my home, knowing I was home alone, and when I called the police, they said they would "send someone by to take a report". I realised that self defense was my own responsibility, and I became an opponent of gun control when the shop told me I couldn't take home my new self defense tool for 10 days.
January 29 2008, 20:24:01 UTC 4 years ago
January 29 2008, 22:28:03 UTC 4 years ago
And I was wrong as well. One time I said to someone else here that no amount of rational argument or provable facts would ever make you change your mind at all, because you were inherently irrational when it came to guns. I'm sorry. It seems that I was incorrect.
I have never expected you to like guns, join the NRA or exercise your 2nd Amendment rights to own a firearm for sport or protection. I have always just wanted you to not actively oppose my ability to do so.
Thank you for this.
January 30 2008, 01:56:08 UTC 4 years ago
January 30 2008, 03:35:27 UTC 4 years ago
January 30 2008, 02:37:55 UTC 4 years ago
Bravo
I admire the statement, more so since it was a public one and took real conviction. I would like to talk to you later about the forum and it's direction, but right now I'm on business travel and working too many hours to think straight.January 30 2008, 05:08:02 UTC 4 years ago
I'm a Buddhist myself, and I believe we should strive to practice nonviolence and compassion whenever possible. However, I also believe this isn't always possible, and that hurting people and helping people are both useful skills to have in today's world.
I congratulate you on your open minded-ness.
January 30 2008, 07:02:35 UTC 4 years ago
January 30 2008, 07:09:33 UTC 4 years ago
Thanks for the post.
January 30 2008, 20:47:57 UTC 4 years ago
You've admitted to being wrong a couple few times on here now, and you've gained my respect for it. It's hard to do, especially when you start out so far to one end of the spectrum.
I'm glad to see you've come to accept the positive uses of guns as in self defense and an equalizer against those who would do harm to others, but what about the plain old fun uses? If you get a chance, shoot some skeet, trap, or sporting clays; shooting a flying disc out of the sky is all kinds of fun. Also look into benchrest bullseye shooting, it's one part shooting, one part physics, and one part meditation with the breath control and concentration needed to make a good shot.
January 31 2008, 21:16:50 UTC 4 years ago
To get a gun yourself, you need to be an active member of a shooting-club. You also need permission from the local police.. Even if you own a gun, you're not allowed to carry it around in public. And you can't use it in self defense. Before buying bullets for your own gun, you have to get a permit from the police.
You also need a special permit given by the government to be able to sell your own gun if you no longer want it..
Not even the police are armed. They have guns, but they're locked away in their cars and they have to call and ask for permission to use them..
Of course, if responding to an armed robbery in progress etc. the police will arrive armed..
Since so few people own guns, there's no real reason to get one yourself.
xx
February 1 2008, 00:44:15 UTC 4 years ago
What about situations like Virginia Tech here in America, and the Jokela School shooting that occurred soon after that, in Finland?
From what I know, Finland also has very strict gun laws, but they didn't prevent the young man who carried out the rampage from going through with it.
And in Virginia Tech, it was the SCHOOL who effectively disarmed the students, leaving them defenseless. In that case, the police arrived after the shootings were done, and therefore were completely ineffective at preventing the shootings, or protecting anyone from the shooter.
February 1 2008, 09:49:43 UTC 4 years ago
Yes, the Jokela School shooting does show that even with somewhat strict gun laws, bad stuff happens. But did you know that;
-There are alot of guns floating around there, over 2 mill. of them. Which I think, compared to how many people who lives there, is a lot of guns.
-In Finland, you can own a gun when you turn 15...
For me, what happened at the school in Finland was an eye-opener. For so long school shootings have been the crazy American thing to do..
But I still belive in strict weapon control. The only ones to be legally armed should be the police -and that is only when the situation calls for it. Millitary personel in uniform on their base may also carry. Same goes for hunters in the hunting season.
Other than that, there's no good reason to own one, not even for sport.
Btw. I don't think there will be many more shootings in Finland after this. I also don't think it will happen in Norway any time soon.
But, there's always gonna be guns no matter how strict the law or how few guns there are. And sometimes, they fall into the hands of the wrong people.
But I strongly believe that when it's harder to get hold of one, you avoid the spur-of-the-moment-crazy-thing from happening. Thus I think, preventing people to use one to cause bodily harm.
But if you really really want one, and have time to spend getting one (not always done in a day) I'm sure you'll find yourself to be an owner of one..
xx
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February 1 2008, 16:27:22 UTC 4 years ago
People start using these guns for the same reasons: fear and no sense of community and connection.
Instead of debating if guns should be controlled or not, I'd like to talk about why people think they need them so much and how we can make people feel they don't need them.
But I am probably a utopic, idealistic hippie for thinking that.
February 1 2008, 17:21:02 UTC 4 years ago
"People start using these things for the same reasons: fear and no sense of community and connection"
Uh, what? care to cite some sources for that one? I started shooting because it was an activity I enjoyed, and because as a kid, I used to shoot at targets with my dad. I'm not sure what fear has to do with any of that, but I am reasonably sure that fond memories of my dad and I spending time together qualify as feelings of "community and connection". And what's more, my fiancee now shoots with me. She had never even seen a gun in real life before she met me; now she is competent and safe in their use, able to shoot extremely well, and owns her own revolver. Shooting is an activity that allows us to spend time together outside of work, school, and our (many times) hectic) home. The only fear at these shooting sessions, is the fear that she's getting to be too good of a shot for me to catch up anymore.
The problem is not guns. Plain and simple. As has been pointed out to
Believe it or not, we gun owners want peace too. So many anti's don't seem to understand that, for some reason. We would LOVE it if there were no gun violence, no gangbangers misusing guns to rob and kill people, no criminals terrorizing innocent people. You know why? Because we're human just like you, for a start. But also because if the BAD PEOPLE who use guns in BAD WAYS would stop doing it, we (the good people) would be able to be left alone to enjoy our interests in peace, instead of being blamed for all the ills of mankind which we have nothing to do with.
February 1 2008, 18:23:05 UTC 4 years ago
People "need" guns, because they're an extremely effective means of self-defense. One of the best ways in which they do this, is by allowing the victim to maintain some measure of distance between the threat and themselves, while still retaining a deadly amount of force, should it be needed.
For instance - a knife is only effective within striking distance. That means, for that knife to do you any good, the target must be within arms reach. That's close enough for them to do a hell of a lot of damage to to you, as well. Not good.
The same goes with tasers and pepper spray. They both have limitations on the distance they are able to be deployed at, that firearms do not. Not to mention that to be totally effective, a taser must have both darts embedded in the target, and pepper spray must reach the eyes, and nose to be totally effective. Not so great if your attacker is wearing glasses or a mask.
And what about those that are disabled, or surrounded by a group of attackers? In those instances, and individual cannot run, cannot escape. Releasing a cloud of pepper spray has just as much chance of disabling the attackers, as it does the victim. And if the victim has respiratory problems, what do you think pepper spray will do? Nothing good. Tasers will be good for one attacker, at best. And while you're busy keeping the trigger down, making sure the jolts are flowing to the one baddie, the rest are upon you.
See what I mean? "Needing" something is just that. A need. Guns were created to be a better, more effective option for defense, whether that be in a personal context, or military/law enforcement. It is the people who use them, that are responsible for the ways in which they are used. Period.
February 16 2008, 02:47:49 UTC 4 years ago
I love how people want to wave a magic wand and get rid of guns. If I had such magicks, I'd want to get rid of all desire to inflict violence and wrongs upon one's fellow humans. Given such a result, the engines of death we have so devised, become mere historical curiosities, and subjects of mechanical interest.
However, given that we operate in reality, these same dreamers seem to equate "ban" as the same thing as "wave a magic wand". Well, committing violence upon one's fellow humans is largely banned (barring the waging of sanctioned wars, etc.) and yet it still happens. However, people assume that guns would be any different.
Further, with regards to school killings, the largest school killing on US soil is still the one committed with explosives...
February 16 2008, 02:42:33 UTC 4 years ago
I have fire extinguishers and smoke alarms because I fear fire, and wish to be prepared.
I have first aid kits because I fear injury, and wish to be prepared.
I have personal defense firearms because I fear assault, and wish to be prepared.
I see no difference.
I'd like to talk about why people think they need them so much and how we can make people feel they don't need them.
Because there are bad people and animals who may wish to do one harm. Preparedness can keep you alive.
February 15 2008, 22:23:33 UTC 4 years ago
First, as others have said, I appreciate your honesty, and indeed, your bravery in posting this.
Second, while following the various discussions, I saw you take a lot of heat, yet you kept your cool and discussed things rationally. This is probably why our discussions actually made you think - you are a rational, thinking individual.
I never once thought you were a bigot, and while I don't expect you to run out and join the NRA or buy a gun, I appreciate you not projecting that decision on the rest of us. Further, while I don't wish that guns had not been invented, as they are still a very humane way to take game, and are loads of fun, I do wish that I could wake up tomorrow morning and find that everyone had decided to cease making violence upon their brothers.
Finally, I would like your permission to read your post on this podcast, which I occasionally guest host. There has been a lot of talk recently about how ineffective our efforts, are, and I would like to present your letter as a case where frank, open and honest discussion can change someone's mind. I realize that it seems silly to ask for permission to read something posted publicly on the internet, but I like to do so as a courtesy. If you agree, I will make sure to post a link here when the episode goes up.
Thank you very much for your consideration.
February 16 2008, 00:56:38 UTC 4 years ago
and sure, feel free to use the post.
February 16 2008, 04:42:28 UTC 4 years ago
4 years ago